Ep 22: Using AI in Medical Education


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How different will healthcare look once AI has cracked its way inside? That's one of the things that we're going to be talking about a day on everyday AI. This is your Daily Livestream podcast and newsletter, helping everyday people like you and me keep up with everything that's happening in the world of AI. Very excited today we have Ryan Martin as our guest. Ryan is the doctor of physical Therapy at the Advanced Muscular Skeletal Ultrasound Center. Ryan, thank you so much for joining us.

Ryan [00:00:50]:

Jordan, thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it.

AI Power Ads and Copilot: Latest AI News

Jordan [00:00:54]:

All right, so I know that we already have some comments coming in, which is great. As a reminder, if you're watching this live, feel free to ask Ryan a comment. If you're listening this on the podcast or reading about in the newsletter, make sure to tune in live next time. I think it's much more fun to learn about AI together.

So, Ryan, before we answer that question on what healthcare is going to look like once AI has just fully infiltrated, or if it will, right, let's go over the news in AI. And before I do this, a warning to everyone, there's a lot going on. So I'm going to take a quick sip, I'm going to go through this very fast and then me and Ryan are going to chat about it. So, here we go. Deep breath. Here we go.

Okay, so Google yesterday launched AI Power Ads and images in Bard, their ChatGPT competitor. Speaking of ChatGPT, ChatGPT announced that they are now browsing, allowing browsing inside ChatGPT with Microsoft Bing. So, a much more powerful engine. And also that will be coming to all free users as well as paid users. And another one, ChatGPT and Bing AI plugins will all be working together.

So, speaking of Microsoft and Bing so this is probably the biggest news of all. Microsoft announced that they're bringing AI to their entire Windows operating system when they announced at their Microsoft build conference, Copilot. So essentially, Copilot is bringing smart AI into your actual computer, into your Windows machine. That was a little easier than I thought. Ryan, that's a lot to dissect in the news. What's your take on all these updates from OpenAI, from Google, from Microsoft?

Ryan [00:02:40]:

That is a lot of information. I think some of the takeaways in there, I mean, first thing, wow. But the fact that you said that Windows is going to integrate it right into your system, unbelievable. Beyond that Chat GPT and being really partnering and having that as your browser, think about all the possibilities that you could do with that.

Jordan [00:03:06]:

I've always been a Mac person and when I saw this, I'm like, I want this this looks like it's going to have a smart AI assistant on your actual computer that can help you with any task that you're doing to me. It's like, oh gosh, I need this. I don't know. Do you want that? Are you a Mac person, windows person, each?

Ryan [00:03:31]:

Yeah, I'm a windows person. I want it.

Stopping AI Altogether: A Difficult Feat?

Jordan [00:03:35]:

Yeah, I can't wait. Okay, so let's talk a little bit about some things that are going on in the health and medical space when it comes to AI. Like I mentioned, feel free to drop Ryan to comment. I know we already have a couple here that I'll put on the screen. So a piece of news, Ryan, that I want to get your take on.

So the World Health Organization recently issued a statement warning against the potential risk of using kind of these large language models like Chat GPT in the healthcare setting. What's your reaction to that? It seems like two different things are going on. It seems like there's all these great developments being made with these large language models that can be used in the healthcare setting. But then you have one of the biggest governing bodies in who coming out and saying, hey, maybe not. How do you think this is going to shake out?

Ryan [00:04:30]:

Well, I think on one of your previous shows, somebody said the train has already left the station. Right. So, yeah, the governance and the regulation is obviously going to be there. Stopping it altogether might be something difficult. We use AI already. We've been using AI, or at least that idea for a little while. But stopping it all together and the who coming out and making that statement, I mean, that's a powerful statement. I guess it depends on the context of what are they going to stop? Right. At what level are they going to stop AI?

So I think that's my take on that is what do they mean by that? I'd have to go through and dissect what they said. But to me, at what level are they trying to stop it altogether or certain applications of it, or they just don't want full automation. It depends on what I think, what they're trying to get at it. Right.

Jordan [00:05:18]:

Yeah, the trains left the station. Right. We kind of talked about this preshow, but I've been in talking to my doctor before and I've seen my doctor use Google, and I'm sure that's very common. So what's the difference? Right? Do you see a difference in those two things? I mean, maybe there is.

Ryan [00:05:39]:

Well, if you start talking about, like, what's the difference between a search engine, which you may have said is dying before I might have heard you said that before calling me out.

Jordan [00:05:48]:

I love it.

Ryan [00:05:48]:

Right? I'm calling you out. No, I mean, now you're talking the difference between a search engine and a language model, right. And something that's intuitive, that has been known to have maybe hallucinations and some error factors in it to where, of course, search engines have plenty of errors too. Right? But I think because in the mainstream media, so many people are talking about all these hallucinations and or issues and this deep fake and everything. And I think there's this FUD or this fear that's kind of going on with all of this. And I think they're putting their statement out first. And again, I can't speak for them. I have no idea. But maybe they're putting this statement out to kind of just say, hey, let's back it up until we learn more and have more governance because we know that's coming.

Ryan's Role in the Medical Industry

Jordan [00:06:36]:

Sure. So let's actually back it up. Let's talk a little bit about kind of what your day to day role looks like. And just briefly, how have you or how might you be using AI kind of in your day to day role? So just explain to everyone a little bit about what that looks like.

Ryan [00:06:52]:

So my role okay, so I am a physical therapist and an ultrasound specialist in muscle skeletal ultrasound. Meaning I don't look at kidneys or thyroids or anything like that. I don't look at babies. People always say, hey, do you look at babies? No, I have no idea. I look at, like, shoulders, knees, hips, hands, wrists, those kind of things. So that's my specialty. And so I teach that.

So I work in a couple of clinics that I partner with. And what we do is we teach this within our clinics. And so I'm kind of the educator role in that position there. And then I also have an education program where I teach MSK or muscles called ultrasound. So then I guess your next question was how do I use AI? Well, how do I not use it? No, I have a couple of tools, but even and again, oh, I guess here we go. We're going to open the box here.

Jordan [00:07:45]:

Let's do it.

The medical field not utilizing generative language tools

Ryan [00:07:46]:

Unlike those who are, I don't really use AI in the medical field. So when I'm in clinic, there's nothing that I'm really using that we're calling generative language. There's probably tools that we're all using anyway, undercover tools that we just kind of use. And it's using automated systems that we interact with. But in the clinic, I'm not going into generative languages and utilizing that for patient data or anything like that. I don't do that.

But when it comes to day to day tasks and things like that, I'm using all sorts. I mean, we could list a myriad of different tools that I use, but the things that I see are different than what I'm using right now. Now, does that mean I'm not going to try and implement them? As I learn more about some of the tools, they're going to be integrated into the clinic setting. Now, the education setting is completely different. There's a lot of tools that I can see are going to be implemented in the education side of my job that are going to make my life so much easier. Again, a whole list of those.

Jordan [00:08:49]:

Sure. So definitely outside tools like you bring up. But I think Tristan, who just left a comment here watching live, great question. So he's saying, what's the likelihood that Epic Systems, the healthcare software giant, begins to implement or work on AI additions to their software, if they haven't already? First of all, Tristan, thank you for also asking that in a way that everyone outside of healthcare can understand. But Ryan yeah, I think most people have heard of Epic. Are these big I think that's an EMR system. Are these big companies going to be working AI into their EMRs?

Ryan [00:09:25]:

Yeah, again, you're talking these big systems that have to face bureaucratic regulations and government and policies because they're dealing with patient data, things that are going to deal with Medicare, Medicaid, government affiliations, things like that. Yeah, they're going to, most definitely, probably. I'm not speaking for Epic, I have no idea. But I already know that there's EMR systems coming out specific to my field that are using generative language and algorithm models to make documentation and patient plan of care systems easier. So the big, big systems, maybe not for a little bit, maybe they are using some at a small level, but there are some smaller EMRs that are already out there implementing AI. So I've been talking to someone about this, trying to set up maybe how can we implement this into our clinics. And like I said, we're not using it right now, but with this AI system, with EMR, Ezpt is the name of the company. They're already doing it.

Jordan [00:10:35]:

Wow, okay. I just learned a lot. I just learned a lot from that from your response to Tristan's question. Also learned a lot just from Harvey's comment here. So Harvey just dropped a comment and said Microsoft and OpenAI and Epic are working on adding AI to the EMR and it'll be released in six months. Wow. Harvey, Ryan, everyone's breaking news, at least to me, but I guess are people aware? Maybe even let's talk on the patient side. Ryan, should patients know? Because I think there's an ethical piece to this as well. Should we know if our doctor or healthcare organization is using AI or I know AI has been used for decades for imaging and to help detect signs of cancer and other symptoms of other diseases. So from an ethical side, from the patients, should we know?

Ryan [00:11:32]:

My opinion so in my opinion, communication is key. So what we teach in our clinics, what I teach, people that come in are learners. The people that we hire, the people that we teach, students that we take in for clinical rotations, one of my big keys is communication with patients and transparency. You don't want to have that underlying, like, hey, I'm doing something nefarious. Because if they ask you, yeah, absolutely be 100% honest. Be clear. Are you going to divulge every little thing that you're doing to automate your system to every patient? I mean, imagine how long that's going to take, right? But yeah, I think there needs to be transparency with patient care.

Jordan [00:12:13]:

Yeah. So you obviously have an interest in AI in your field and you're following the news and the advancements. I know it's hard to look into the crystal ball, but I'm going to ask you two anyways. How do you see your day to day changing in the coming years in regards to AI integrating more and more into the field?

AI and Adaptive Learning: Transforming Healthcare and Education

Ryan [00:12:40]:

So when we're talking about AI into the healthcare field is one kind of topic and we're talking about AI into the education system is kind of another thing. So then you have to hybrid and blend those in the healthcare. Obviously, I see these tools growing, expanding, improving, and making what I say is the B word, burnout is helping reduce some of that burnout. I mean, anybody in here that is in healthcare, any field really, to be honest, healthcare, education, business, anything, there's burnout rate. And I see the future of this as growing all these tools to help reduce some of that in the education side, I see, oh gosh, there's so many things on the education side that you can talk about with adaptive learning.

So I was talking to Dr. ArmyA Abdo. He's in the medical field and AI strong leader in the AI field. And he was saying using AR and VR, so augmented reality and virtual reality with the backbone of AI running those systems. So having adaptive learning within there. So what is adaptive learning? Right? So you think about like intelligent tutoring. So you have a student, right? So you have this student that is either excelling here and not so much over here. AI can then take an adaptive approach and say, okay, here's your weak points, let's go ahead and retrain or find a new way to teach a new approach.

Because it's a generative language, it can actually think about different models on how to teach. And then from that point, it can tailor to that specific student. So I see in the healthcare, having AI work into VR or augmented reality, and some people get those confused. I got it confused just real briefly is what Armia Abdo told me is Doctor Abdo, I should say, is augmented is meaning that you're already seeing everything that's in front of you. You put something like glasses in front of you or something. And then there's a superimposed layer of things that you can interact with versus virtual reality, where everything's virtual. And so I see the healthcare or the education program maybe utilizing that for distance learning and integrative learning and collaborative learning in the future. I know I'm talking a lot here. Yeah.

But I think it's something really interesting because imagine having AI run the backbone and having this adaptive learning system while you're in an Immersive program. So instead of looking at a 2D screen and looking at like, professor So and So or whatever, you have this 3D rendering of whatever is you're learning.

So I'll put it into perspective of what I do. So if I do MSK, ultrasound, muscle scalp to ultrasound, and I have these glasses on and I have a 3D rendering model of something in front of me and yeah, think about that. And as I interact with that system, it can tell me kind of what's going on, right? So this is what I envision and then having think about this. A multidisciplinary team, so a collaborative unit of people. So you have a nurse on there, you have ancillary staff in there, you have doctors, you have physical therapists, and you can all interact on that same case through distance learning. So that's kind of where I see some of that going there. And again, that was really generated from Dr. Abdo. I don't know. There's more gamification to it, I would say. Does that make sense?

Jordan [00:16:17]:

It sounded like Ryan. It reminded me of a game, quote unquote, that many of us played as a child, operation, right? But real, but for learning. Right? Like, you put on the glasses. You put on the glasses. So it's augmented reality, virtual reality, but you're learning. And there's a 3D subject, and AI models are telling you if you're doing it right or wrong, but that's a realistic outcome for education in the future. You're saying something like that.

Ryan [00:16:43]:

I think that's something that we can definitely work toward. We already have augmented and virtual reality. Right. What's stopping us from using an AI backbone to create learning models and using gamification? So if people don't really know what that is, is using an interactive way that you can do that, and it will help you learn and stay engaged. And so we know if we're engaged in something more likely, we're probably going to learn more.

Jordan [00:17:08]:

Yeah. Okay. I have so many follow up questions because I want to know more, but we have a ton of comments and I want to get to them as quickly as we can. So Jonathan with a great question here. So asking Ryan, what do you think or belief will be the impact of the clinician patient relationship as AI becomes more deeply integrated into the healthcare systems? Will it enhance communication interest or could it create a more impersonal transactional dynamic? And how can we mitigate the latter scenario? What a great question.

Ryan [00:17:41]:

Hold on here.

Jordan [00:17:42]:

I'll actually put that back on the screen so you can just fully digest it. Yeah. This sounds like the last question of a test to see if you can become a doctor, right?

Ryan [00:17:54]:

Okay, gosh. Let's see if I can pass. Okay. How do I think it's going to impact clinician patient? I think it comes down to transparency, right? I think it comes down to how you communicate it, how you're educated on it. The more you learn about the integrative systems and AI, the more that you can explain it. It's the fear of the unknown. Right? And so if you can explain that to the patients, hopefully you're building trust because a patient's not going to follow you into whatever treatment plans or algorithms that you have. If they don't trust you. Right.

They're not going to blindly say, well, his title says I should probably do that. You have to build that trust. And I think with AI, as long as we're open about it and we can discuss it with our patients, I truly believe that it will help with that communication. I think it'll help develop bonds with the patients. Do I think that there's going to be impersonal transactional dynamics to it? Yeah, absolutely. Anything that is new is going to have gaps, right? Everything that's going to be new is going to have gaps. And I think the more that we learn and we educate ourselves and be transparent about it is the more we can bridge those gaps.

Jordan [00:19:06]:

Yeah, great. That's a great point. And I think what you said there is so true. Transparency and communication in the age of AI is so important, especially like what Jonathan brings up when these doctor patient relationships historically have been so personal. And then when you interject AI in there, you need to, I think, communicate it so both sides are aware. Ryan, I hope we're still good. I know you have five clinics to run, but we have a couple more questions, if you have a minute.

Ryan [00:19:40]:

I do, I have plenty of time. I just wore this to make me look cool. No, I am going to work after this, but no, I have time.

Jordan [00:19:47]:

All right, let's do it. So, real quick here. So we have another great question. So what app currently is more popular or maybe most popular in the AI field for clinicians during daily practice? This is great. I have no clue. Are clinicians using anything? If so, what?

Ryan [00:20:04]:

Well, as I stated in the beginning, I'm not using anything within the clinic myself. So what's popular in the clinic? I would imagine people are using things like the GPT beings Barred to kind of understand what's going on. But like I said, there is an integrative AI EMR platform that I hope to see things like that building out, which helps cut down on time, which, again, we talked about a little bit and helps with tedious tasks. So to me, I think some of the EMR, or at least some of the applications in the documentation, is probably the most popular or going to be the most popular to begin with.

Jordan [00:20:45]:

Yeah, that makes sense. So, Harvey, with another kind of just comment here, physicians being able to spend time with patients without looking away, to type, that's big, right? Like just being able because sometimes it's almost like in the clinical setting, you're talking to the doctor's back. Right. So that's something I didn't really think about, but that's a big piece, right? Yeah, exactly. This would not be a good interview. If you're listening to the podcast, ryan turned his back. This would be a terrible interview. But that's a good point that Harvey brings up, is maybe it allows people to be a little more personal.

Ryan [00:21:20]:

Right. Hi, Harvey. Thank you.

Jordan [00:21:24]:

Great. So oh, gosh, so many questions. I don't think we're going to be able to get to them all because you would be here literally all day and then some. So I have one more here since we haven't had anything yet from Christopher. So Christopher is asking, how might the integration of AI into the medical education influence the roles and responsibilities of medical educators? And what steps should be taken to prepare for these changes? Another great question, and we'll end with that question. Ryan, what's your thoughts on kind of what Christopher said there?

Revolutionizing Medical Education: Changes in Responsibilities

Ryan [00:21:56]:

Well. Hi, Christopher. Integration into medical education, how is it going to change the responsibilities and roles immensely? Well, again, I don't think that brick and mortar schools or those kind of education systems are going to be changed dramatically. I think this is going to help augment those systems that we have in place. But I do believe that the roles are going to have to change because you're going to have to adapt to these new learning modules. Instead of a student having a hard time and going to get a tutor, your education system is going to be intuitive enough to change with the student. Right. And so the educators themselves are going to have to be ready to move with that kind of flow. So I think the responsibility of the medical educators is to, well, educate themselves and be smart in this system. So, yeah, I think that there's going to be obviously there's going to be steps to this. Can I tell you what those steps are? Probably not in detail, but there's going to be steps to build. You can't just what is it? Open the fire hose and try and drink out of it. I think especially with a lot of educators, you're going to have to kind of drip feed them until we're ready.

Jordan [00:23:12]:

Yeah. So I lied. I'm going to end with one more question, but from me. So here we go. So what would you say maybe advice to your former self or just anyone out there, whether they're in the medical field or not, what advice would you give them to help them just handle with what's going on with AI? So maybe it's a lesson that you've learned or just kind of your kind of approach, but what's maybe one thing you can share with people as we're all starting to handle all of this new AI technology, come at us pretty quickly all at once. What's your one kind of takeaway or lesson that can really help people?

The Cautions of New Medical Technology

Ryan [00:23:58]:

I would say one of my biggest lessons would come from my biggest mentor, my father is don't go into this apprehensive. Don't go into this full bore. Don't be pessimistic about it. What my father used to tell me about a lot of things like this was be a guarded optimist. And what he meant was be open about it. Have good expectations about things, but always remember that there's this part of it that you should always be aware that anything can happen and be careful.

Jordan [00:24:34]:


Ryan [00:24:34]:

And so I think I posted this the other day. This is a new shiny toy. And I said, sometimes shiny toys have sharp edges. So just be aware that you have to be safe with new technology. So if somebody's up and coming and trying to learn all this, say, hey, you know what, be hopeful, be open minded, but don't take it for granted.

Jordan [00:24:54]:

Wow, shiny toys have sharp edges. Such great advice. Such great advice, right? Because, yeah, as we're getting all these new shiny toys on almost a daily basis, I think that's so important to keep in mind because, yeah, we want to play with them. We want to make something beautiful or creative or efficient with all these toys. But yeah, they have sharp edges sometimes. So thank you. Thank you, everyone. So many comments. Like I said, we're not going to be able to get into them all, but I'm at least going to be jumping back into the comments later today. If you are watching this on the live stream, but if you're listening on the podcast, check us out as well. At least I'm going to be in there continuing to keep this conversation going. I'm sure Ryan will drop by. He's super active on LinkedIn, so make sure that you check him out and give him a follow as well. So, Ryan, thank you so much for joining us and for giving us your experience and expertise in this subject.

Ryan [00:25:50]:

Thank you so much, so much for this. I want to give one shout out really quick. Absolutely, yes. Connor Grinnon out there. He's the dean of the NYU Business School. He's the one who got me all into this. His post on LinkedIn was really just really got me immersed in this. So I just wanted to say thanks to him on that. And thanks for everybody else listening here. Thanks for the awesome questions and I appreciate your time and effort.

Jordan [00:26:14]:

All right, well, yeah, I'll have to check that post out, by the way. So thank you, everyone for tuning in, bringing these great questions for Ryan. And as a reminder, we do this every single day, live 07:30, a.m. Central Standard Time. Also, please go to your Everydayai.com, sign up for the newsletter, check out other podcasts. We've had about 20, so we try to bring a different expert in every day to talk about how AI is affecting all of our everyday lives. So thank you for tuning in and we hope to see you tomorrow and every day on Everyday AI. Thank you.

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